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Deliah

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I think that the belief that it is possible goes a long way to it becoming a reality. I can understand that it must be very tough to get off meds and probably an unpleasant experience in itself. Leave the door open for it, it may happen. I tend to think in terms of, things not happening yet, as apposed to never happening or being impossible. Maybe you will feel that you can give it another try one day. We can't change other people, but we can change what we do. You never know. D x
 
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ramboghettouk

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i don't think people should come off meds and expect the state to pick up the pieces at 3k a week if it doesn't work out nor is it fair on the neighbours to have to put up with it, maybe if i was living in downing street and kept cameron and osbourne awake all night
 
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Deliah

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I don't understand your view, but I'm curious. Are you saying that other people welfare and experience of you is more important than your own, so you wouldn't attempt to stop meds on that basis? D x
 
Gajolene

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i don't think people should come off meds and expect the state to pick up the pieces at 3k a week if it doesn't work out nor is it fair on the neighbours to have to put up with it, maybe if i was living in downing street and kept cameron and osbourne awake all night
Do you folks really get 3k a week as in 3 thousand??? I must not be understanding this right.
Also some people's have medical reasons to be taken off meds completely soooo are you saying because they can't be medicated they should be forced off welfare benefits. This makes no sense to me. They don't stop being ill or many have long periods of perfect symptom free clarity and functioning between relapses-but still may be unemployable, why should they be ostrasized or penalized for it?
 
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ramboghettouk

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Do you folks really get 3k a week as in 3 thousand??? I must not be understanding this right.
Also some people's have medical reasons to be taken off meds completely soooo are you saying because they can't be medicated they should be forced off welfare benefits. This makes no sense to me. They don't stop being ill or many have long periods of perfect symptom free clarity and functioning between relapses-but still may be unemployable, why should they be ostrasized or penalized for it?
i was referring to the 3k a week it costs to keep someone in hospital if they come off meds and it doesn't work out, in a month they've had more spent on them than i get in benefits,in a year, excluding rent which would be paid while i'm in hospital anyway if i took that route
 
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ramboghettouk

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I don't understand your view, but I'm curious. Are you saying that other people welfare and experience of you is more important than your own, so you wouldn't attempt to stop meds on that basis? D x
i think you should consider those around you. those who don't are a bit psychopathic, though i do think such people should be dealt with by the prison system

If i came off meds and alienated those around me it would only increase my isolation and dependence on the mental health system
 
shaky

shaky

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Do you folks really get 3k a week as in 3 thousand??? I must not be understanding this right.
Also some people's have medical reasons to be taken off meds completely soooo are you saying because they can't be medicated they should be forced off welfare benefits. This makes no sense to me. They don't stop being ill or many have long periods of perfect symptom free clarity and functioning between relapses-but still may be unemployable, why should they be ostrasized or penalized for it?
No - we don't get given £3000 a week.
But if we are in hospital then we don't have to pay to be there - and Ramboghettouk is estimating that it costs 3K a week to look after each patient in hospital.
 
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ramboghettouk

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No - we don't get given £3000 a week.
But if we are in hospital then we don't have to pay to be there - and Ramboghettouk is estimating that it costs 3K a week to look after each patient in hospital.
that is the figure bandyed around, theres a story in philip k dicks semi autobiography he gets sectioned in reagons california, the day after he comes out the bill for the hospital comes through the door he says he can't remember the oxygen used to revive him, but the cost is on the bill along with the rest of the care
 
Gajolene

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Ok that's makes sense now. I've had the cost of medical care argument with a certain family member for years as we also have free health care, I don't feel guilty however over hospital costs as that is what I pay taxes for and had income taxes taken from my pays for over 20 years to cover and I'm sure my smoking will result in much higher hospital costs in the long run than the occasional short term psych stay.
I do feel for our US neighbours and my relatives, remember my dad taking a heart attack when I lived in Florida with them for a year, the expenses were astounding on the bill for a 4 day hospital stay, and you are charged for absolutely every single thing used down to tounge depressors, pillows bedding, water pitures, glasses, matress covers, themometors, absolutely every thing used was billed direct. Was pretty astounding seeing the bill and cost well over 20,000. Luckily my dad had canadian insurance to cover the bill still being a citizen and in private insurance he had the forsight to invest in years earlier.

I can see the irony of thinking well in prison they would get 3 meals a day and could be as manic as they want, and kept secure,
for those guaranteed a quick relapse, and guaranteed dangerous or volitile outcome coming off meds. But it wouldn't be a very safe place for them to be.

Having no insight into ones own condition in the more severe forms of paranoid and delusional scitzophrenia's I think is the main problem with this, you don't punish people for being ill and you need rationing and reasoning abilities to be held criminally responsible. And really there is such a small percentage that would actually committ criminal acts,

It would be major overkill to just shuck them all off to jail which is just as much an expense as hospital is. I think the Finnish project is recognizing this best and the western american indians (shamanistis)who have a completely different approach in providing the security and safety which is so vital in recovery. If people feel safe and secure there are drastically lesser chances of them causing harm to themselves or others.

With monitoring by the cmht and family supporting and not being tossed out of services and just left to their own devices out on some city street somewhere there is better outcomes for not relapsing and knowing when it's time to go back on meds when it's needed and there is no other option.

I'm actually proud that JS recognized one of his meds did nothing and took himself off them, while staying on the ones that do help and maintain his stability. It a med with well known major bad side effects and if he can go without that added danger to his health I have no problem with that. I was scared as hell when he went off them at first and expecting the worst which just didn't happen and I saw no difference in him off them except he wasn't sleeping 14hours a day anymore and having more regular sleep cycles, which was a good effect overall.
 
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ramboghettouk

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i wasn't moaning about the cost of hospital admissions for those who need them, i was moaning that most of the cost of mental health goes on a group of people who are non compliant on meds and end up in hospital, preventable if they take they're meds, i sometimes feel that people who come of meds are in efffect rewarded for it, quite often receiving care that they themselves say they don't want
 
shaky

shaky

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i wasn't moaning about the cost of hospital admissions for those who need them, i was moaning that most of the cost of mental health goes on a group of people who are non compliant on meds and end up in hospital, preventable if they take they're meds, i sometimes feel that people who come of meds are in efffect rewarded for it, quite often receiving care that they themselves say they don't want
But that is just such a simple way of looking at it.

The purpose of medical services is not just to keep us alive, but to give us a quality of life. Ideally, a quality of life that enables us to contribute something to society.

If a person takes the meds offered to him, he may stay out of hospital - but he may be living a life of intolerable dullness. He may become overweight and a drain on medical services that way - he may be so de-motivated that he never gets off his arse to go and do the wonderful things that he wanted to do, wonderful things that would enrich this life and the lives of many around him.

It isn't black and white.
It is just different levels of risk.
And sometimes it is worth it to go down the riskier path.
 
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ramboghettouk

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But that is just such a simple way of looking at it.

The purpose of medical services is not just to keep us alive, but to give us a quality of life. Ideally, a quality of life that enables us to contribute something to society.

If a person takes the meds offered to him, he may stay out of hospital - but he may be living a life of intolerable dullness. He may become overweight and a drain on medical services that way - he may be so de-motivated that he never gets off his arse to go and do the wonderful things that he wanted to do, wonderful things that would enrich this life and the lives of many around him.

It isn't black and white.
It is just different levels of risk.
And sometimes it is worth it to go down the riskier path.
it is about risk and it's so convenient for some that if they come off meds and the risk doesn't pay off that the mental health system will pick up the pieces, a mental health system they themselves say they don't want by the way
 
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ramboghettouk

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we've had these arguments over and over again and where does it get me other than stressing me up, maybe certain experiences in certain areas have given me post taumatic stress disorder as one counciller said and remembering them doesn't help

I guess off drug neighbours creating ptsd isn't cool, they're suppposed to be solving it
 
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ramboghettouk

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i still say if your alternative approaches are so successful with severe mental illnesss, why weren't they used in the days before modern drugs

i do use certain old approaches, i find psychiatrists aren't into them now with modern drugs and that is a shame
 
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i still say if your alternative approaches are so successful with severe mental illnesss, why weren't they used in the days before modern drugs
They were in ways, you only have to look at moral treatment. How far back are you going? & to which parts of the World are you confining things? Or is the asylum system the beginning of time, & nothing else existed in other parts of the World.

We had 60,000 years of Shamanism. Any more recent examples you will immediately deny - there's no point in citing them all again.

i don't think there is an ideal, but there is surely rational sense in using some psychological/social support approaches - over simply labelling & drugging people?

i think the broader social/environmental issues need to be looked at/addressed, as well as deeper psychological/emotional & imo spiritual/transpersonal areas to these experiences. i just cannot understand why it is your defending the current system & fighting against a more humane approach the whole time?

There has been/is a frightening social development of a vulnerable/deprived underclass in this country - reflected Globally. I wonder if it's always been the case? & just shifts forms? Wonder if things will improve with the election? & where everything is headed?

One of the local towns is very deprived, a lot of coastal areas are now - it's descended to new depths since 08, & i see it getting worse. Gradual social collapse wouldn't surprise me.
 
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